Talking T Gauge

B 67 · Last edited by B 67 on Mon Dec 15, 2008 9:02 am; edited 1 time in total

No, don't worry. I haven't been slopping grease and oil all over those fine T gears. Laughing

But I just wondered about the subject, as it's generally an important thing in the other scales. There's probably no need to lubricate the Eishindo mechs, and I suspect that doing so would do anything but improve the running.

Over the years I've rarely had to clean the tracks of any of my layouts, including occasionally used ones and test tracks. I've long used various kinds of very fine electrically conducting oils on the rails - in as minute a quantity as possible, and it have always had success with it. About 25 years ago I bought a tin of Wahl hair clipper oil and, after quickly discovering that too little works far better than too much, I've used that or similar things ever since. In fact I still have that original tin of Wahl oil. And its still half full. I've also used WD40 or equivalent. You'll be pleased to know I don't spray it on the track. Again, I've had success using this, with smooth running trains, almost never needing to clean the track, even if not used for weeks and in the case of one layout, years.

So far I've been reluctant to give this method a trial with T gauge. Even a minute amount may well cause problems with the tiny trains. On the other hand, it may actually improve electrical pick-up and reduce arcing, which can cause the blackening of wheels and rails.

I guess there's only one way to find out. If it doesn't work, I can always clean it off again.

Any thoughts???
_________________
Darren,
Stratford,
Australia.

Chris333 · Joined: 25 Sep 2008 Posts: 74

I was thinking a light grease on the gear would help the noise a bit, but they are so open under the trucks that even just a small piece of ground foam would get stuck and ruin my day.

David K Smith · Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 3:24 pm Post subject:

Please bear in mind that I'm not attempting to criticize anyone with this information, or incite a flame war. I'm just trying to set the record straight.

With respect to the blackening of wheels and rails, it's not the result of arcing. Trust me on this one. A fellow modeler with whom I've been working closely for 35 years, and who is a physicist, calculated what it would take to cause arcing sufficient to create any visible deposits. The results are quite astounding: the amount of current necessary would create a significant safety hazard (enough current to burn your house down--several times over). Arcing in anything but the largest scales is extremely rare to begin with, and the claim that it causes blackening of wheels and rails due to an accumulation of carbon is a myth.

Although it may look like carbon on the wheels and rails, there is no carbon in it. The blackening is actually caused by the accumulation of, for lack of a better term, gunk. This gunk is a mixture of minute amounts of lubricants released by locomotive mechanisms, pulverized nickel from metal wheels wearing on rails, and household dust (which is 75-90% dead skin cells). Plastic wheels tend to collect more of it than metal wheels because plastic wheels are made from engineering plastic that has a very slightly oily surface due to outgassing, a process that continues slowly over the course of years, and also the reason parts made from such plastics do not need lubrication--as well as the reason paints do not adhere well.

The subject of oil on rail is a touchy one. Some report success; some report disaster. The problem that oil presents for some modelers is that it becomes a magnet for dirt. Instead of keeping the track clean, it attracts and collects fine dust, and over time turns into a sticky goo that's a nightmare to remove. The differences in results may be due to a great many factors, including environmental conditions (humidity, level of airborne dust, etc.). Also, most ordinary oils are poor electrical conductors, so they cannot enhance electrical conductivity. There are some rail cleaning solutions on the market that claim to be electrically conductive, when in fact they aren't the slightest bit conductive (the era of snake oil salesmen is neverending). Not to mention that even the tiniest amount of oil on the rail can reduce the pulling power of locos. That said, it can reduce the amount of pulverized nickel that accumulates from the normal wear and tear of wheels and rails.

As for T Gauge, it has some distinct differences with larger scales that should give folks pause to consider things like lubricants. The mechanism does not require any; all of the gears are engineering plastic. Light grease or even light oil will add enough drag to the geartrain to slow it almost to a stop. (I know this because I tried it.) So, you'll just have to live with the noise.

Also, the wheels and rails are a steel alloy, instead of a nickel alloy, so they may behave differently from other scales, not to mention that the wheels on the powered units are all magnetized. I would be wary of applying anything to the rails that could possibly get into the mechanism. For myself, so far I've found that ordinary alcohol on a paper towel does a great job of keeping the rails clean. I'm presently working on an alternative to Eishindo's strange wheel cleaner to keep the wheels clean.

Sorry for carrying on so long, but I did want to keep the record straight. And, once again, I'm not trying to be critical or adversarial.
_________________
—David

http://www.t-gauge.net/
http://1-450.blogspot.com/

pray59 · Joined: 05 Sep 2008 Posts: 88 Location: Fremont, CA

I tried lubrication, and the loco stopped running. The motor don't have enough power to overcome the stiction of Labelle 103, the lightest oil I have.

I had to clean it all out to get the loco to run again.
_________________
-Robert Ray

TBA · Joined: 08 Sep 2008 Posts: 120 Location: Massachusetts

This is the first I've heard of oiling track, other than I was recommended to clean/preserve some rusty antique tinplate track I had.

An alternative to oil for lubrication may be graphite, but that's probably not needed either.

Sam K · Joined: 11 Nov 2008 Posts: 14 Location: Manchester, UK

A few of the bits of info I've picked up over the years:

Track cleaning: Further to what David said, a small piece of hardboard/masonite works well for track cleaning. Either plain or with a little isopropyl alcohol, and when the end you're using gets dirty just chop off a few mm and 'bingo' a new track cleaner.
The theory (and fact) is that it is only very slightly abrasive, just enough to pick up the dirt and polish the rail top. It's also cheep/free.
Abrasive track cleaners such as the 'rubbers' scratch the rail top making small grooves into which dirt/gunk is pushed which then attracts more dirt.
(BTW: I have seen arcing, back in my old N scale days, when I had an old Lima BR class 31 which sparked most entertainingly with the lights off)

Mechanism lubrication:
Particularly Kato but also others coat their gears with teflon or similar (part of the secret of their quality). If you put oil on these mechs. it can cause the teflon to come off and then the gears will wear. I've got one of my grandads mechanisms which he oiled and the worm gear wheels (not the brass worms) are badly worn.
I don't know if the T gauge mechs. are so coated but they maybe!?

Sam K.

David K Smith · Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 2:14 am Post subject: Re: Lubrication?

Chris333 · Joined: 25 Sep 2008 Posts: 74

After painting the track I sand off the rail tops, then keep sanding using finer and finer paper down to about 1000 or more. I just do it to fix any mess I made while painting. I had now idea it could be better than stock.

B 67 · Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 12:20 pm Post subject:

Fear not David. I'm not the flamewar type, nor do I feel criticized (or criticised in non-US spelling Wink

)

My whole reason for mentioning the subject was to prompt some discussion. I'd not have found out some of the things you mention had I kept quiet. I also see now that, as I was suspecting, using any kind of oil with T gauge is probably best avoided.

I hadn't noticed any arcing with my T gauge trains, but then I hadn't run them in the dark either. I have certainly had visible arcing in N, HO and O gauge models. And black marks left on the rails or wheel at the points where the arcing occurred. Pitting I think is the name. But this is different from the black gunk that accumulates on wheels and rails.

The worst case I had of this was an Atlas O gauge F9, purchased secondhand from someone who ran it on an outdoor system. The nickel-plated (?) wheels had been worn so that the plating was gone from the wheel-tread. Running it like this caused something of a fireworks display at the wheels and after a few minutes, it would not run. Cleaning the black deposits - which were dry and powdery, the loco ran again for a few more minutes. Eventually I had the wheels replated and the problem disappeared. I've had some HO locos with similar problems, although not as bad as the O gauge F9. The Wahl oil method cured it at the time.

Anyway, like I said before, I personally have had much success with the oiled rails and wheels - but equally I know of many who have not. Perhaps they've used the wrong oils, or too much oil, or something else gave them different results. I don't know. But we're "Talking T Gauge" here and I was hesitant to try the method with T, and it appears I was wise to be. The lightness of T may cause problems with contact through even tiny film of oil on the rails and I've no doubt it will make the already minimal traction worse. So I'll steer clear of combining oil and T for the time being.
Something to experiment off the layout when I have more of the stuff to play with.

And although the oil-on-rails experience I have shows dust sticking to it isn't a problem in my situation, I'm not about to encourage more dust to the T gauge track.

By the way, regarding lubricating the mechanism, I took a gearbox out of one of my trains and spun the gears by hand - well, by fingertip really. I was amazed that the gear-train kept spinning for a couple of seconds after I did this. So it is already very free-running. I couldn't imagine oil improving that given the tiny size of the gears. Even a drop of water would slow it down considerably.
_________________
Darren,
Stratford,
Australia.

David K Smith · Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 2:39 pm Post subject:

B 67 · Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:55 am Post subject:

I may have spoken too soon. Just received a package from our friends at Eishindo. Inside was the expected Aquatic vehicle sets (weren't available when my promotion pack was sent) and their latest product - Aluminium paste - for more reliable running and less cleaning of wheels and rails. It is claimed to reduce the oxidisation which stops the trains running.

I'll let you know how it works in a few days.
_________________
Darren,
Stratford,
Australia.

David K Smith · Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 3:01 am Post subject:

B 67 · Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 11:55 am Post subject:

Well, after 2 weeks with the aluminium paste, I can report that it does appear to have some effect - but I'm not yet convinced that it is making a a big improvement.

The trains were running quite rough this morning, so I removed the catenary masts and gave the track a good clean with a Peco rubber. I then tried the wheels. Most of the wheels looked clean, except the drive wheels, which were black. The Eishindo wheel cleaner didn't seem to help clean the wheels (although the paper became black on the edges). But after much effort, they began to look clean again. I applied more aluminium paste and put the trains back on the rails.

Unfortunately the running was no better than before I cleaned the track and wheels. So, I decided to resort to the method I'd used in other scales and which we had decided was a no-no with T gauge. Yes, I used oil on the rails.

The oil in question was Selley's RP7, which is similar to WD40 and other aerosol can lubricants.

I put a tiny drop on each rail, and within a few laps, my trains were running MUCH better. In fact they ran the rest of the day without trouble - not that I ran them continuously.

Now, I'm not suggesting you all go out and try the same thing. I'm just saying what I did today, and that it made a very noticeable improvement in the running of my T gauge trains. Let's give it some time to see if any new problems present themselves before we all go out and try the same thing. Wink

I hope I'm not going to regret this later. Crying or Very sad

_________________
Darren,
Stratford,
Australia.

B 67 · Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:54 pm Post subject:

Hmmm! 9 days later and I haven't cleaned the track again. Trains still running well. What else can I say? Very Happy

_________________
Darren,
Stratford,
Australia.

zomer · Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:29 am Post subject:

You could say where to get the Paste???? Smile

_________________
Victorian T Gauge Blog
http://www.victorian-tgauge.blogspot.com/