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PWM - it's coming.
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B 67



Joined: 23 Sep 2008
Posts: 277
Location: Stratford, Australia

PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:41 pm    Post subject: PWM - it's coming. Reply with quote

Earlier there were discussions on using Pulse Width Modulation to improve the slow speed and starting of T gauge trains.

I have enquired as to whether Eishindo are looking at developing this and Mr Hirai has sent me the following YouTube videos showing the development of such a control, which will become the next generation power box. He has told me this info is not confidential and my be published here.

Mr Hirai wrote:
It will be released together with the 3rd generation train which is used a
worm gear.("multi car control on the same track" function may be installed.)
Movies are uploaded to youtube. Please take a look at your convenience.

T1 T6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3YhqNzrDj8

T1 T10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baAx06vJxYc

T1 T15
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BK_nTWwlKa8

T5 T10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h77BGeKbl0

T5 T15
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kpeqpb2oHVU

-There are 20 tap switches on the demo board.

ON pulse cycle (mSEC)
T1: 6.1
(T2~T4: 7.2~9.4)
T5: 10.4

OFF pulse cycle (mSEC)
T6: 40
(T7~T9: 30~26)
T10: 24
(T11~T14: 22~14.6)
T15: 12.6
(T16~T20: 9.4~1)

For example, "T1 T6" combination, T1 = 6.1 mSec (min ON time) & T6 = 40 mSEC
(max OFF time), generates the slowest speed on this demo.

-Power Box (modified for this demo) for power adjuster during OFF time,
hence you can see the max volume makes the max speed as well as max volume
of standard power box.

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Darren,
Stratford,
Australia.


Last edited by B 67 on Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:53 am; edited 1 time in total
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trainspotter-usa



Joined: 04 Sep 2008
Posts: 315
Location: Minnesota

PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oooh...
Third generation train.
... Wait a minute we haven't even got the second generation train yet! Wink Laughing

Ian
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I CAN see how cool this stuff is!!!
http://more-t-please.blogspot.com/
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B 67



Joined: 23 Sep 2008
Posts: 277
Location: Stratford, Australia

PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The second generation train is the 1:32 scale model which has an extra reduction gear.
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Darren,
Stratford,
Australia.
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victorian t gauge



Joined: 02 Nov 2008
Posts: 109
Location: traralgon, victoria, australia

PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WWWWWHHHHOOOOOOAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Surprised Very Happy
Wow! what an incredable low speed! the excitement i felt watching that footage! that is sooo impresive! PERFECT LIGHT VR BRANCHLINE RUNNING SPEED! I!! CANT!! WAIT!!!!!! Surprised Surprised Surprised Surprised
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trainspotter-usa



Joined: 04 Sep 2008
Posts: 315
Location: Minnesota

PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

B 67 wrote:
The second generation train is the 1:32 scale model which has an extra reduction gear.

Indeed it is.
It will be nice to get my trains to run that slow
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victorian t gauge



Joined: 02 Nov 2008
Posts: 109
Location: traralgon, victoria, australia

PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i have still got a grin from ear to ear, from watching that footage! this new worm drive & pulse system, along with flextrack & switches should surley take t gauge from "boarderline toy" to a very professional modelers level. Smile
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B 67



Joined: 23 Sep 2008
Posts: 277
Location: Stratford, Australia

PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Imagine what you should be able to achieve with PWM and the worm drive?

You'll notice that Mr Hirai has hinted at digital control too. The mind boggles at the possibilities this will bring (not to mention at the size of the decoders Shocked ).

What next? Flywheels? Well, perhaps not. Even if they could fit, I'd have doubts as to them being effective in such a tiny scale.

However, "Never say never" is certainly very applicable to KK Eishindo and T gauge.
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victorian t gauge



Joined: 02 Nov 2008
Posts: 109
Location: traralgon, victoria, australia

PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

never say never????? ILL HAVE A LIVE VR STEAM R CLASS please!!!! Surprised
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B 67



Joined: 23 Sep 2008
Posts: 277
Location: Stratford, Australia

PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

victorian t gauge wrote:
never say never????? ILL HAVE A LIVE VR STEAM R CLASS please!!!! Surprised


Wot!?!? You haven't made one already. Shocked

Heh heh! Laughing You know what I meant.
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Stratford,
Australia.
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David K Smith
Chief Cook and Bottle Washer


Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Posts: 435
Location: New Jersey, USA

PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

victorian t gauge wrote:
i have still got a grin from ear to ear, from watching that footage! this new worm drive & pulse system, along with flextrack & switches should surley take t gauge from "boarderline toy" to a very professional modelers level. :)


Took the words right out of my ... keyboard! Holy creepers, Batman, that is just stunning.
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http://www.t-gauge.net/
http://1-450.blogspot.com/
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B 67



Joined: 23 Sep 2008
Posts: 277
Location: Stratford, Australia

PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know about anyone else, but I thought the sound from the pulse was reminiscent of the "chugchug" sound of a smaller diesel engine - like in a bus or rail motor. Some imagination may be needed here. Sound? Now there's a thought.

Flex track - as it was brought up. Mr Hirai has also told me that the following accessories are under development.

*Joiner track - this will be to join the flex track. Originally it was planned to sell a bag of gold joiners. However, it was realised that while some modellers would be able to use them, most users would not be able to handle them.

*Power cable plug for flex track.

*Turnout switch for flex track (with twin point blades).

Also, the controller will be available separately and the next batch of power box and track sets will come in a smaller package without the oval of track being pre-assembled. The pre-assembled oval was offered as a way of ensuring beginners, elders, women (keeping in mind that the first batch was originally for a mail order company) would have a properly assembled track to run their train on. It is easy in HO to join tracks with one rail above a joiner instead of in it. In T this is also easy and much harder to notice. At least it is until the train jumps off the rails.
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oztman



Joined: 14 Jan 2009
Posts: 34
Location: Sydney, Australia

PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It looks as if there are some very exciting developments on the way. Now, pardon my ignorance, but in layman's terms what is PWM when it's home?
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Gary
Z scale, but very curious about T - and who knows?
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B 67



Joined: 23 Sep 2008
Posts: 277
Location: Stratford, Australia

PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oztman wrote:
It looks as if there are some very exciting developments on the way. Now, pardon my ignorance, but in layman's terms what is PWM when it's home?


D'oh! I go to the trouble of using the full term in my opening post - but forgot to bold, italicize and underline it. Wink
Now fixed. Very Happy

Pulse Width Modulation. Laughing

Which means that instead of increasing and decreasing the voltage to control the speed of the motor, a series of pulses of the full voltage (4.5v in this case) is used (which is why it makes that sound in the videos). Low speed uses shorter pulses - say on for 5% of the time and off for 95%. The more time the pulse is on, the faster the motor turns. I hope that explains it enough. Here's an image that may help.


From http://www.netrino.com/Embedded-Systems/How-To/PWM-Pulse-Width-Modulation
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oztman



Joined: 14 Jan 2009
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Location: Sydney, Australia

PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Darren for that very lucid explanation. Is this technology used by other model railway manufacturuers?
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Z scale, but very curious about T - and who knows?
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David K Smith
Chief Cook and Bottle Washer


Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Posts: 435
Location: New Jersey, USA

PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oztman wrote:
Thanks Darren for that very lucid explanation. Is this technology used by other model railway manufacturuers?


Others might contribute additional details, but many typical commercial packs offer "pulse" power that is not related to PWM. With "pulse" power, a DC waveform is superimposed over plain variable DC. This is accomplished by mixing half-wave, unfiltered AC with DC, and mostly because it's really simple and cheap to do.

There may be some higher-end commerical packs that deliver PWM that I don't know about (I usually "roll my own" power supplies, so I'm not intimate with the market), but I do know of several non-mainstream manufacturers of PWM controls; these add-on throttles accept AC from a separate transformer (provided by the modeler) and deliver PWM to the rails.
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http://www.t-gauge.net/
http://1-450.blogspot.com/
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